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标题: 关于一个非正式品种的讨论 ’Sakkie's Green’ 绿巴里 [打印本页]
作者: haolingy 时间: 2020-9-21 11:06
标题: 关于一个非正式品种的讨论 ’Sakkie's Green’ 绿巴里
本帖最后由 haolingy 于 2020-9-22 09:23 编辑
这是一个未被登记的品种，但是从各个方面来说它都应该是一个被广泛接受和认可的品种，它可能没有被发表过，它的培育者也可能还没有确定它的正式名字。在火宵之月的生石花图谱中，它被记录为v. hallii，它确实不应该是从C111中培育出来的，因为不具有欧翔玉的特点。
关于这个品种的更多信息，欢迎各位补充。
在Keith的网站里有这样的记录。
*L. hallii ‘Sakkie’s Green’. A title sometimes seen on social mediaor the Internet relating to green bodied specimens of L. hallii.However, there has been no published description, and in any case it is unclearif the origin is var. hallii or var. ochracea, the latter alreadyhaving the green cultivar ‘Green Soapstone’ assigned. Currently an unacceptedepithet.
于是我和Keith进行了一些讨论，下面是邮件里的部分信息。
（Andy to Keith）
……
'Sakkie's Green' is a widely used epithet, it is different from 'Green Soapstone' in many ways.
In ICNCP Rec 21A.1 , When a cultivar can be assigned to a taxon at species rank or below, the name of this taxon, or its unambiguous common name, should accompany the cultivar epithet, as this conveys further information about the plant which may be valuable to users.
It is a recommendation, not a provision.As we don’t know whether it is var. hallii or var. ochracea, my book is to record this as L. hallii 'Sakkie's Green'+ discription. When my book is published, will this be a establishment for 'Sakkie's Green' if not against breeder's wish?
(Keith to Andy)
……
You mention ‘Sakkies Green’. Howdoes ‘Sakkies Green’ differ from ‘Green Soapstone’? If you can give me a clear distinction and publish that, the epithet will be registered.Otherwise the epithet will remain as an excluded name on the register with allthe others.
（Andy to Keith）
……
When we describe acultivar, we use distinct characteristics. But we shouldn't forget the classification criteria in Professor Cole's book.
1.'Sakkie's Green'remains green regardless seasons or sunlights. 'Green Soapstone' often turn yellow with more sunlights, which is the reason why we call it "Yellow hallii". Characteristics influenced totally by breeding conditions can't form a new cultivar, however it is difficult to turn a 'Sakkie's Green' to yellow color.
2.'Sakkie's Green' has distinct margins and regular network of channels with small islands, the outer top edges are well-defined. 'Green Soapstone' also has truncate profile, but the outer top edges are round, network of channels is shallow and somtimes not obvious.'Sakkie's Green' is more likely to be a var. hallii to me.
3.Not mentioned in Professor Cole's book, it is also important to observe the babies in my opinion. I have different open window aucampiaes, KO, L2-87, ROW. Sometimes it is difficult to tell apart adult plants with fully opened windows. When they are babies(0.5-2 yearsold), however, KO has round head and short fissure, L2-87 or ROW has elliptic head and long fissure across lobe. Under same breeding conditions(it isnecessary for industrial production in my greenhouse), 'Sakkie's Green' babies are always green and bigger, 'Green Soapstone' babies are yellow and smaller.One year old 'Sakkie's Green' is often 1.5cm while 'Green Soapstone' no more than 1cm at same age.
4. Some 'Sakkie's Green' have raised spines in some years. These "some 'Green Soapstone'" are not a few,but are many.
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这是回复中的部分（Keith to Andy）
Thank you for your e-mail and photographs. Yes you make a good case for ‘Sakkie’s Green’, but not all specimens I have seen are like the ones you show (see attached). The difference has to be obvious and consistent in the adult form, but if your plants are always darker green and more rugose, your published description will establish the epithet. ‘Green Soapstone’ is a green aberration, so ‘Sakkie’s Green’ would have to be different, perhaps “a dark green, rugose aberration” or something like that. If a cultivar need a label to distinguish itself, it is not a cultivar.
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新的回复：
（Keith to Andy）
……
Regarding ‘Sakkie’s Green’, I am trying to contact the originator who I believe is Sakkie Simon of Namibia. He used to exchange plants with my old friend Tok, but I have never met him personally.
Because of your comments I went to the Cole monographs and looked up the description of ‘Green Soapstone’. There it is indeed recorded as “greenish-yellow”, so you are correct in your observations, well done. I have amended the cultivar register now which will make establishing ‘Sakkie’s Green’ very much easier when the time comes. I will inform you if I hear back from Sakkie Simon himself.
作者: 乘月 时间: 2020-9-21 13:14
你有它网站吗，我想看英文原版的 。另外说一句 “If you can give me a clear distinction and publish that, the epithet will be registered.Otherwise the epithet will remain as an excluded name on the register with allthe others.
” 这个措辞非常的不友好 属于老板逼问下属的措辞 我和外国人说话从来不敢这么说
作者: 乘月 时间: 2020-9-21 13:19
找到了 感觉写的真好啊 好多配图和介绍细节特征的
作者: haolingy 时间: 2020-9-21 18:50
可能你们有上下级关系或者商业利益吧，我觉得没什么问题，结合上下文吧，这只是截取的
作者: haolingy 时间: 2020-9-21 19:26
这是回复中的部分（Keith to Andy）
Thank you for your e-mail and photographs. Yes you make a good case for ‘Sakkie’s Green’, but not all specimens I have seen are like the ones you show (see attached). The difference has to be obvious and consistent in the adult form, but if your plants are always darker green and more rugose, your published description will establish the epithet. ‘Green Soapstone’ is a green aberration, so ‘Sakkie’s Green’ would have to be different, perhaps “a dark green, rugose aberration” or something like that. If a cultivar need a label to distinguish itself, it is not a cultivar.
看来他还是不太认同我的看法，不清楚是英国的黄巴里太绿还是绿巴里太黄。事实上，很多栽培种是需要一个标签的，比如花色变异，当然杠这个没有意义。如果这个区别还不大，那么黄碧琉璃'Speckled Gold'和绿碧琉璃'Green Sandpoort'应该是类似的呀，你们觉得呢？
作者: 肆鲕叁 时间: 2020-9-21 19:44
绿巴里的事情，你问英国人干什么。就比如我拿着你的蜘蛛侠去问DT这是什么、怎么来的、有什么特征，他只会说什么乱七八糟的。我不懂。
绿巴里的事情，要问也应该去问DT或者ss啊，很多品种都是经过各路大神根据自己的喜好园艺化了，就比如297a，国外绿，DT黄，欧洲人就理解不了为什么297a会是奶油黄。189欧洲人还觉得散纹断纹189是最好的，描述的非常非常非常奈斯的189在亚洲人眼里就是个曲玉样。
作者: 花生石 时间: 2020-9-21 20:11
前排围观大佬
学习
作者: haolingy 时间: 2020-9-21 20:50
如果你不清楚的话，那么重复一遍，这个英国人是ISHS国际园艺科学会指定的生石花属栽培种登记人。你确定绿巴里是DT首先培育出来的吗，可靠的依据有的话麻烦提供一下。绿巴里叫什么名字其实与我无关，毕竟不是我的品种，取决于培育者自己，只是我要记录，所以有了讨论
作者: haolingy 时间: 2020-9-21 20:56
另外说一句，我不认为DT或者任何有修养的、专业知识的人会说对别人的栽培种说啥乱七八糟的，这种话一般是一些比较粗陋的人说的
作者: haolingy 时间: 2020-9-21 21:16
有一点可能要说明一下，我不信任任何听说的东西，听别人说的东西经常会脱离实际，特别是不具有考证精神的一些所谓“大神”，这是因为人的记忆不可靠，所以不特指国内或国外，到最后可信的比例不多，也许对很多人足够了，对我所做的事情不是
作者: 爽朗的小卡西 时间: 2020-9-21 23:23
来学习！~~
作者: 乘月 时间: 2020-9-22 00:20
其实看它英文回复是非产严谨客观认真的措辞 至于具体学术细节我小白就不动了
作者: 乘月 时间: 2020-9-22 00:23
有一点我在海外生活很肯定的是，他们对颜色的描述和国人不太一样，比如他们说绿，有可能只要带点绿，黄绿，青绿都算绿，他们说紫，紫里也叫紫，李子也叫紫，还有没有红调的也叫紫。。。还有各种什么purpleish red...yellowish green...对于颜色描述很悬乎，所以颜色这块，我觉得还是不能用它英文描述做参考。。。
作者: haolingy 时间: 2020-9-22 08:36
本帖最后由 haolingy 于 2020-9-22 08:44 编辑
所以规则是规则，解释规则又是解释规则，不同人对事情会给出不同的看法
作者: haolingy 时间: 2020-9-22 09:21
新的回复：
（Keith to Andy）
……
Regarding ‘Sakkie’s Green’, I am trying to contact the originator who I believe is Sakkie Simon of Namibia. He used to exchange plants with my old friend Tok, but I have never met him personally.
Because of your comments I went to the Cole monographs and looked up the description of ‘Green Soapstone’. There it is indeed recorded as “greenish-yellow”, so you are correct in your observations, well done. I have amended the cultivar register now which will make establishing ‘Sakkie’s Green’ very much easier when the time comes. I will inform you if I hear back from Sakkie Simon himself.
作者: 骨头 时间: 2020-9-27 13:27
太专业了
作者: 严三刀 时间: 2020-9-29 12:45
大神，能不能带中文翻译呀，咱们只是没文化的农民，看不懂英文
作者: 乘月 时间: 2020-9-29 12:55
本帖最后由 乘月 于 2020-9-29 01:56 编辑
Regarding ‘Sakkie’s Green’, I am trying to contact the originator who I believe is Sakkie Simon of Namibia. He used to exchange plants with my old friend Tok, but I have never met him personally.
关于杀鸡的绿，我试着联系了原培育者，纳米比亚杀鸡西蒙。他以前和我老友逃课交换植物，但是我没有见过他。
Because of your comments I went to the Cole monographs and looked up the description of ‘Green Soapstone’. There it is indeed recorded as “greenish-yellow”, so you are correct in your observations, well done. I have amended the cultivar register now which will make establishing ‘Sakkie’s Green’ very much easier when the time comes. I will inform you if I hear back from Sakkie Simon himself.
因为你（熊童）的备注我去了科尔 monographs(这啥图鉴) 查找关于绿滑石的描述。的确被记为 “偏绿的黄“，所以你的观察是对的，干的漂亮。 我增修了园艺注册记录，把已有的杀鸡绿变得更加得以辨认。如果杀鸡西蒙回复我我会通知你。
作者: 乘月 时间: 2020-9-29 12:56
杀鸡的绿是品种名，就是吕巴里，杀鸡西蒙是最初培育者的名字。逃课是Keith的朋友。
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